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Cat Fight

Talk about the Teams & Drivers

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Cat Fight

Postby Lawrence on Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:53 pm

In case you have not been following it, there has been a public spat between Lotus/Renault testers Marco Sorensen (who I never heard of before now) and Carmen Jorda (who I have taken the time to google). No need to repeat it all here, but it is the usual "she is not good enough to be there" material.

I have no idea if that is true or not, and suspect there was strong marketing incentives to bring Jorda on board. But.....when you consider that half of the F1 drivers are there because of contacts, money, name, connections, sponsorship, government support, family wealth, etc......then it is hard to single out a driver because she got there because of her marketing value. In fact, most F1 drivers come from at least an upper middle class background, and many from a better circumstances than that. Off the top of the my head, I know of only four recent drivers who came from modest means: Lewis Hamilton, Fernando Alonso (but got his first go-kart at age 3), Sebastian Vettel (but got his first go-kart at age 3 1/2) and Michael Schumacher (although his dad owned a go-kart track). I am sure there are more, but I do not know of them. On the other hand, the list of wealthy, privileged or connected drivers it quite long.
"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
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Re: Cat Fight

Postby Mach on Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:09 pm

I agree with everything Jorda says :heart:
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Re: Cat Fight

Postby Paolo 2 on Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:56 am

Although I have to admit that even getting into karting these days is obscenely expensive and so Lawrence's view that the majority of F1 drivers come from very priviledged backgrounds and most of them are in fact pay-drivers is undeniably true, I fear that Sorensen has got a very very good point, in the sense that he, like many others it must be said, did achieve something in his racing career and to my knowledge he's now being paid to race, whereas Jorda - despite some strong backing - never achieved anything at all, zero. It bothers me to say so but in pure racing terms she's a laughing stock, if you take her results and set them against the average F3 (or GP3, for that matter) driver of her generation she's at the very best in the lowest 5%. Let's put it in another way: she's one of the weakest drivers in her generation to have come at F3 level, yet she somehow managed to end up a Lotus development driver :roll: :roll: :roll: she's so bad that if we forum members were in our early 20s and were given the chance to race an F3 car for a few weeks (only a few weeks mind you, it would be more than enough), many of us would likely achieve more than Jorda did. Had I been in Sorensen's shoes "in my good old days" I would have felt the same as he does now. The fact that there are so many pay drivers doesn't necessarily mean that all pay drivers are the same, if you consider that someone like Massa or Bottas is a pay driver and try to match Massa's speed against Jorda, well it wouldn't be very nice for poor silly Jorda, wouldn't it?
When she says that on occasion she was "only" 1 second off Grosjean's pace she is just making clear that she doesn't know what a driver should do: 1 second is a massive gap with the same car and in ideal conditions (ie in a similator, with an actual racing car there are many things that could go wrong).
I suspect that Jorda is possibly even worse that Jean Deniz Deletraz, the guy that to my knowledge is almost universally considered the worst driver who ever entered an F1 race.
So to sum it up, IMHO Jorda had better keep her mouth shut, she only proved that not only sh's quite simply hopeless as a racing driver, but she doesn't even come across as the sharpest tool in the box :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Cat Fight

Postby Paolo 2 on Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:05 am

Lawrence wrote:I know of only four recent drivers who came from modest means: Lewis Hamilton, Fernando Alonso (but got his first go-kart at age 3), Sebastian Vettel (but got his first go-kart at age 3 1/2) and Michael Schumacher (although his dad owned a go-kart track). I am sure there are more, but I do not know of them. On the other hand, the list of wealthy, privileged or connected drivers it quite long.


I'm not sure that I would consider Hamilton as coming from modest means, his dad did own a (not so) small business and employed several people when he started karting. Whereas Schumacher's father didn't own that karting track, he was the keeper and handyman, his sons bought the track for him after they achieved success. Alonso and Vettel come from average lower middle class backgrounds from what I understand, same as Raikkonen (if I'm not mistaken). If you consider Schumacher's generation there are several drivers who didn't have a very priviledged background (Panis, Alesi and many others)
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Re: Cat Fight

Postby Lawrence on Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:26 pm

Marco Sorensen's record: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_S%C3%B8rensen

Best results:
2014....GP2...1 win...finished 11th
2013....Renault 3.5....2 wins, 2poles, 1 FL...finished 7th
2012....Renault 3.5....1 win....finished 6th
2013....German F3...2 wins, 2 poles, 1 FL....finished 2nd

Carmen Jorda's record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_Jord%C3%A1

0 wins, 0 poles, 0 fastest laps

2009.....Euro F3....finished 6th.
2008...Spanish F3...finished 8th


My conclusion is that neither of them deserve to be there. Neither of them got to the outer edge of F1 based primarily on ability. And that is one of the problems with F1. They probably need to limit the "super licenses" to only those drivers who have demonstrated good results in a top series (GP 2 or Indy). I would not consider either of these drivers deserving of a "super license"
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Re: Cat Fight

Postby Willie Caja on Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:18 am

I think Carmen is mostly a decorative figure. She's there to talk to media, but more important, to send the message that women "driver" have a place in F1. It's pure PR.

I don't know if that's good or bad (is any little girl looking at her as a role model? Does she really send the "Hey, girl! You can be an F1 driver if you want!" message? Who knows...)

But it's pretty clear that that's her role. She doesn't need to be a good driver at all.
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Re: Cat Fight

Postby Lawrence on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:44 pm

That pretty much appears to be the case....but there are a lot of drivers in F1 not there on primarily on merit (and that appears to include Marco Sorensen, judging by his limited results).
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Re: Cat Fight

Postby Paolo 2 on Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:48 am

Lawrence wrote:Marco Sorensen's record: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_S%C3%B8rensen

Best results:
2014....GP2...1 win...finished 11th
2013....Renault 3.5....2 wins, 2poles, 1 FL...finished 7th
2012....Renault 3.5....1 win....finished 6th
2013....German F3...2 wins, 2 poles, 1 FL....finished 2nd

Carmen Jorda's record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_Jord%C3%A1

0 wins, 0 poles, 0 fastest laps

2009.....Euro F3....finished 6th.
2008...Spanish F3...finished 8th


My conclusion is that neither of them deserve to be there. Neither of them got to the outer edge of F1 based primarily on ability. And that is one of the problems with F1. They probably need to limit the "super licenses" to only those drivers who have demonstrated good results in a top series (GP 2 or Indy). I would not consider either of these drivers deserving of a "super license"


Ascertaining whether a driver deserves to be in F1 sometimes can be tough, from what he achieved in the last few years it looks as if Sorensen is not the next Lewis Hamilton BUT the case with Carmen Jorda is totally different: she has never won a single race, when Sorensen competed in the most competitive F3 national series he ended up 2nd overall, when Jorda competed in possibly the least competitive F3 national series she finished 22nd (she was 8th in the f300 ranking, which is like the class "b" of spanish F3)! And she was the last driver in the standing who took place in all the races. Frankly it looks as if we're talking about two totally different propositions. It's true that Sorensen didn't achieve much after F3 but still he is now being paid to race whereas Jorda is there only for he good looks.

I know that you won't believe me but I'm sure you (as well as most people who can drive a car and fit into a single seater) could quite easily match Jorda's pace given a few weeks training (matching her pace on a single lap, over a race distance it's a bit more difficult but that's down to fitness). The difficulty in driving a racing car is not driving it per se (even though it's quite difficult to start some manual cars), being relatively fast is not an issue because that's what those cars are designed to do, the difficulty is being very fast, in a sense it's Jorda herself that is acknowledging that when she says that she was almost a second off Grosjean's pace: that is the difference between someone who drives a racing car (and we all can do it) and someone who car drive it to the limit
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Re: Cat Fight

Postby Willie Caja on Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:48 pm

Yes. The same difference as "playing football decently" and "playing football like Messi". :P
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Re: Cat Fight

Postby Lawrence on Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:36 pm

Well, it is not like they have let her actually race the car. We are talking about a "development driver."...and she is not the only "development driver". They have Estaban Ocan, who does have a resume (1st GP3 in 2015 and 1st Euro 3 in 2014), and who, at least according to wiki, is the "third and reserve driver"

With Renault on the upswing, Magnussen and Palmer as drivers, and Ocan as the third driver, I don't think we will see her actually racing.

On the other hand, Magnussen and Palmer are both F1 driver sons, and there seems to be a lot of those now in F1.
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Re: Cat Fight

Postby Mach on Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:40 pm

Quickly, name the BEST EVER F1 reserve driver?
Tough one isn't it :confused:

Better to race in a different race series and enjoy yourself :beer:
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Re: Cat Fight

Postby Lawrence on Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:25 am

Well, I never heard of Marco Sorensen until he trashed Carmen Jorda.
"To explain the lure of speed you would have to explain human nature; but it is easier understood than explained...Speed is the second oldest animal craving in our nature..." -- T. E. Lawrence
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