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2015 USA GP

Talk about the Teams & Drivers

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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Sakae on Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:04 pm

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/544158/Merc_to_take_action_after_US_clash/

Why I find these offensive, if not repulsive? Now, when WDC is decided, he will take action? So, what did he do in 2014 after Spa, if not destroyed Rosber mentally? Just a one big distasteful joke.
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Lawrence on Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:21 pm

Really enjoyed the race. They almost all looked like real race car drivers out there. A lot on the limit, a few over the top more than once, and just some real balls-to-wall racing. Good stuff. In the end, F1 doesn't need new regulations, just a little moisture.

Anyhow, congrats to Lewis Hamilton on a well earned win and his championship.
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:04 pm

I really enjoyed the race, it's a great track and a bit of rain is always welcome

Rosberg - he deserved to win. IMHO if was "at fault" at turn 1 for the very simple reason that has always allowed Hamilton to treat him like that, either he manages to make him change his mind (I presume by sending him against a wall, it's harsh but I think that this is the sad reality) or he should move on (in the sense that he should find another team, IMHO he would be perfect at Ferrari or McLaren, and McLaren will be back). Other than that a great race. I just can't quite understand what happened when he lost it, I've see a slow motion video on TV where it shows that he kept 3rd for a very short time and when he engaged 4th he lost it. There must have been some sort of glitch, I don't believe that Mercedes deliberately did this, but the fact that Toto and Niki were so happy after their driver who was leading the race went off IMHO speaks volumes about what is happening at Mercedes. I hated what Ferrari had Barrichello working as Schumacher's butler, but I now appreaciate that at least they were open and honest about it

Hamilton - considering his talent a very mediocre performance, I presume that he must have been quite nervous and it's entirely undestandable. I really wish to see him dice with someone who isn't contractually banned from racing him, he's a great driver and it would be a great show

Vettel - he's a hammer

Raikkonen - I know, he didn't finish the race and he had a troubled afternoon but I really enjoyed watching him race yesterday, if he gave us such a spiritided performance every race I'd be is #1 fan

Alonso - :tophat: :tophat: :tophat: _O_ _O_ _O_ my driver of the day, after being punted by Massa at the start he managed to climb to 5th, that is a colossal achievement in my book. Pity the engine let him down. The McLaren chassis is not bad, the word on the street seems to be that Honda knows how to fix the engine for next year, let's keep our fingers crossed because I'd love to see Alonso dice with Hamilton

Vestrappen - very good race for him, I think tht at times he's a bit over-optimistic with some of his moves but he clearly has got what it takes. And that Toro Rosso isn't too shabby either

Sainz - another fantastic drive from him , let us not forget that he started last, he pulled some great moves

Button - another solid race from him, I wonder why people take offence any time Alonso says something not entirely positive on Honda yet Button is much more critical and no one raises an eyebrow
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Sakae on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:25 pm

I have been all those years under impression, that Barrichello grew into a role of "domestic" on his own, rather than having it written in a contract, but that's past. People on this board surely know very well, that any NA standard employee agreement contains an ambiguous clause at the end, which states, that other than above listed duties, you will perform additional duties as instructed by management. I am assuming that Schumacher had the same clause in his agreement. Michael once said, you cannot contractually sign on an F1 driver, with instruction that he will drive slowly (or slower).

Paying large sums of money to Hamilton is an indication where he stands, and it is hardly for a role playing domestic at Mercedes. Maybe Ferrari might surprise us in winter, and get someone younger to partner Seb, even as I doubt that. TP seems happy with Kimi at the moment.
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Lawrence on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:36 pm

Paolo 2 wrote:Button - another solid race from him, I wonder why people take offence any time Alonso says something not entirely positive on Honda yet Button is much more critical and no one raises an eyebrow


One is dark and glowering and the other is outgoing and pleasant.
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Lawrence on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:38 pm

Paolo 2 wrote:Rosberg - he deserved to win....


Actually, he had the win and went off the track. As the U.S. commentators pointed out, the last nine times he had pole, he only converted it into two wins. There is a something more than just team bias going on here.
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Mach on Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:10 pm

Congratulations Lewis and Mercedes.
Hopefully Ferrari et-al provide better compete level next season.
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Sakae on Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:50 pm

Paolo 2 wrote:Vettel - he's a hammer


I do not want to assume too much, but perhaps this expression was not intended as Urban dictionary suggest what assertion "he's a hammer " actually means in street slang.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hammer&defid=3654738
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:06 pm

Lawrence wrote:
Paolo 2 wrote:Rosberg - he deserved to win....


Actually, he had the win and went off the track. As the U.S. commentators pointed out, the last nine times he had pole, he only converted it into two wins. There is a something more than just team bias going on here.


Yes he went off the track but that is not a mistake, you or I driving that car wouldn't go out like that simply because we changed gear, he didn't go wide and into the wet astroturf like Kvyat (and even that can happen)

He didn't convert those poles into victories IMHO because after Spa last year he is a beaten man and has been told very clearly what he can and what he can't do
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:21 pm

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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Quaddo on Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:20 am

Paolo 2 wrote:I just can't quite understand what happened when he lost it, I've see a slow motion video on TV where it shows that he kept 3rd for a very short time and when he engaged 4th he lost it. There must have been some sort of glitch, I don't believe that Mercedes deliberately did this, but the fact that Toto and Niki were so happy after their driver who was leading the race went off IMHO speaks volumes about what is happening at Mercedes.


Rosberg's "mistake" at the end of the GP looked fake to me. It reminded me a lot of the Monaco 2014 Q3 incident.
It killed my enjoyment of a race that had been very entertaining up to that point...

I wouldn't be surprised if the reason Rosberg was so angry after the race, was that he was told to fake a mistake and let Hamilton win (i.e. team order).

The look on Toto Wolff's (Merc's team boss) face when Rosberg went off track was not a face of concern, but one of contentedness and smugness.
Rosberg's post-race (non-)explanation was also not convincing at all.
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Sakae on Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:35 am

One can detect certain resemblance between Rosberg's case and of some (have not) teams. First they sign a (poisonous) contract, and then they are surprised over consequences of that decision. Nico had ample indicators available to him for consideration, why he shouldn't have accepted his last contract, and if he decided to do so, then only with well stated clauses, protecting his own livelihood. Money spend on an expensive and smart lawyer together with experienced contract negotiator would have been prerequisite, yet based on what we see, advise he received might have not been the very best one. I am not sure what he can do, but seek a seat elsewhere, despite this is could be uphill battle, thus I think for all practical purposes he might be done with F1 in competitive car, unless Ferrari makes a move, something I doubt they will. The indicators I am referring to is due diligence anticipatory analysis of life with his teammate, as soon as he was hired. Hamilton came in not as totally unknown figure, Mr. Lauda uttered a lot of words, thus writing was on the wall from day one, unraveling I think in Hungary in 2014. Future had a lot of dark clouds on horizon. There is of course possibility that he has run out of good options, and had to take what was given to him.

Having said that, I am not going to guess who is a "better" racer, unless someone can show me bias free criteria how to judge those things. There is a point system deployed by a regulator, imperfect as it is, but that's all what we have. Drivers have their own unique circumstances why they do better or worse on that scale, that's rather obvious, but mistreatment of one teammate is another thing. Nico, compared to Kimi in Ferrari, is in bad predicament, and only after purging his mind rather rapidly with regards of recent past, and strong start next year with perhaps some quiet support in the background by couple of smart advisers is probably all what he can do now. Besides, having new blood in line like MV and others, I am not so sure that he will be offered next contract extension with Mercedes anyway, so what he has to loose to get aggressive?

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/544276/There_are_internal_rules_in_our_team_Rosberg_reveals/

F1 legend Alain Prost, however, thinks that Vettel – not Rosberg – is indeed likely to be Hamilton’s closest challenger in 2016. “For Nico Rosberg it will be quite difficult now to recover from this race,” the quadruple world champion, referring to the mistake that cost Rosberg the win, the title and his good mood in Austin, is quoted by Speed Week.
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:01 am

Quaddo wrote:
Paolo 2 wrote:I just can't quite understand what happened when he lost it, I've see a slow motion video on TV where it shows that he kept 3rd for a very short time and when he engaged 4th he lost it. There must have been some sort of glitch, I don't believe that Mercedes deliberately did this, but the fact that Toto and Niki were so happy after their driver who was leading the race went off IMHO speaks volumes about what is happening at Mercedes.


Rosberg's "mistake" at the end of the GP looked fake to me. It reminded me a lot of the Monaco 2014 Q3 incident.
It killed my enjoyment of a race that had been very entertaining up to that point...

I wouldn't be surprised if the reason Rosberg was so angry after the race, was that he was told to fake a mistake and let Hamilton win (i.e. team order).

The look on Toto Wolff's (Merc's team boss) face when Rosberg went off track was not a face of concern, but one of contentedness and smugness.
Rosberg's post-race (non-)explanation was also not convincing at all.


I personally wouldn't go as far to say that it was a fake, very likely it was just bad luck, the bad luck that always seems to hit the #2 drivers (Massa and Barrichello when they were with Schumacher at Ferrari, Webber during the years that saw Vettel dominate at Red Bull, etc). there are other times when it was soooo obvious that Rosberg had to give the lead to Hamilton, Monza last year is just an example.

IMHO what happened last Sunday could have happened anywhere, from the outside it looked as if he got max torque all of a sudden when upshifting from 3rd to 4th gear, it can happen, had it happened when his car was going straight we wouldn't have even noticed it

Anyway, welcome to the forum Quaddo :beer: :beer:
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Lawrence on Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:43 pm

Welcome to the forum Quaddo.

I have not looked at the spin a 100 times. I see no reason to evaluate it further. What sticks out in my mind is that the last 9 times Rosberg has won the pole, he has only won the race twice. Quite simply, he has not driving with enough confidence and capability to beat Lewis Hamilton. I don't think it is team orders, contracts, or anything else. The team orders and contracts certainly did not tell him to relinquish the lead 7 out of 9 times. I think it is fundamentally the driver(s). It is both Rosberg and Hamilton.

In 2014, in the best of times, Rosberg was able to challenge Hamilton. Since then, I think Rosberg has shown some weaknesses and Hamilton is actually looking stronger. Therefore, this season is really no contest. Rosberg is a very good driver, but he is no Hamilton. Hamilton is uniquely good, certainly one of the three best out there now, and may be the best. In his rookie year, he closely matched his teammate Alonso in speed, poles, wins and points. In the end, the fight with the teammate is the most telling indication of the quality of a driver. Rosberg and Hamilton have been teammates for three years now. I think it is enough to measure. We will have a fourth season to compare them again.

The counterargument is that somehow or the other the team gets behind one driver and influences the results. This is always certainly part of the landscape, although I can think of no cases where a team got behind the weaker or slower driver.* Team bias may magnify the differences between the drivers, but does not create them.



* Actually I think there are three cases that could be argued: Brabham in 1967, Williams in 1981 and perhaps McLaren in 2007, but that is all I can recall.
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Re: 2015 USA GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:43 pm

Lawrence wrote:Team bias may magnify the differences between the drivers, but does not create them.





I totally agree with this statament, I always thought that in pure driving terms Hamilton was much better than Rosberg, and in turn I have thought until the beginning of this season that Rosberg had significantly more brainpower than Hamilton and a much stronger character. I still believe that he's more intelligent than Hamilton but I had to reconsider my judgement of Rosberg's character, he took a very unfair beating after Spa '14 but I could barely believe how weak he looked, especially at the beginning of the season. And I'm still puzzled about why he lets Hamilton treat him like dirt at the start of most races, he doesn't have to drive into Hamilton, all he has to do is keep his place, if Hamilton barges into him no one (apart from Toto and Niki, of course) is going to blame him
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