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2015 Italian GP

Talk about the Teams & Drivers

Moderators: Lyria, Mafia, Lawrence, Administrator

Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Lawrence on Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:24 pm

Paolo 2 wrote:. What Sakae is referring to explains why they measured a tyre temperature that wasn't in compliance with Pirelli's guidance, as I read it it doesn't address whether they were in compliance with the rules or not...


Then I guess the obvious question is: Were they in violation of the rules as written and traditionally tested, or was it only the additional Pirelli or FIA guidance issued or procedures instituted for Monza that they were not in compliance with?
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:35 pm

Lawrence wrote:
Paolo 2 wrote:. What Sakae is referring to explains why they measured a tyre temperature that wasn't in compliance with Pirelli's guidance, as I read it it doesn't address whether they were in compliance with the rules or not...


Then I guess the obvious question is: Were they in violation of the rules as written and traditionally tested, or was it only the additional Pirelli or FIA guidance issued or procedures instituted for Monza that they were not in compliance with?


Even stewards could not answer with clarity your question last weekend, which is, as I think, basically main reason why at the conclusion Mercedes escaped, and rather puzzling report to FiA was placed into records. There is the issue of methodology (procedure) how to sample pressure, and also re-confirmation by FiA of min/max boundaries.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:57 am

Sakae wrote:Even stewards could not answer with clarity your question last weekend


I don't think that they couldn't (it looks quite straightforward to me, either they were within the set range as provided by the regulations or not, irrespective of what Pirelli's suggestions were), I rather think that they didn't want to clairify that
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:05 am

Paolo 2 wrote:
Sakae wrote:Even stewards could not answer with clarity your question last weekend


I don't think that they couldn't (it looks quite straightforward to me, either they were within the set range as provided by the regulations or not, irrespective of what Pirelli's suggestions were), I rather think that they didn't want to clairify that
Should we open this can of worms and speculate about potential answers as to WHY they..?
Joking aside, I do agree that for a professional person like you it seems straightforward; you are either in, or out, and there is not much mystery in that. Some of us however are thinking differently, and for me it is not the result only, but also correct quality of process how the result was obtained within limits of current technology. I could think of a few potential factors, derivates of imperfect process, which can skew the result from one measurement to another. Well, it was a race, not a lecture in engineering physics, so we might perhaps leave it at that. :hypocrite: :)
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Mach on Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:11 pm

F@!# KIMI :angryfire:
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Lawrence on Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:27 pm

Well, I think the answer to my question is in a story on today's front page called "Teams often took risks with pressures says Hakkinen"

To quote:

The Italian grand prix was the first time a tyre manufacturer's usage guidelines were strictly enforced, after Pirelli increased the recommended minimum pressure in the wake of high-speed blowouts at Spa.


OK...so this is the first time they have ever tested or enforced tire pressure rules, so it was something based on tire manufacturer's guidelines (vice the FIA rulebook) and was the first time they ever tested them. So, of course, it got a little cocked up.

I think the stewards were correct it not applying any further penalties to Mercedes over the technicality of how and when to measure tire pressures. They need to have a clear set of standards that all the teams are familiar with before they go penalizing them.

"I remember from my F1 career how radical decisions were sometimes made with the tyre pressures," the Finn revealed.

"The team wanted to improve performance, so we took risks even if the tyre company had a strong view about it. Safety should always be above everything else," Hakkinen added.


On the other hand, according to Hakkinen, dangerously dicking around with tire pressures has been done before.

Nothing here is all that surprising.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:18 am

Found this morning: ThisisF1
The great Austrian blames the rules, not Mercedes.

“The error was due to the precise execution and a precise definition of the regulations,” said Berger, who until recently served as a single seater commissioner for F1’s governing FIA.

“But when a tyre should be measured and under what circumstances should not be the main theme of a race weekend,” he insisted.

...as suspected.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Lyria on Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:22 pm

Mach wrote:F@!# KIMI :angryfire:


I get the feeling you're not happy Mach, I'm not sure though :reallyevil:

Lawrence wrote:Well, I think the answer to my question is in a story on today's front page called "Teams often took risks with pressures says Hakkinen"

To quote:

The Italian grand prix was the first time a tyre manufacturer's usage guidelines were strictly enforced, after Pirelli increased the recommended minimum pressure in the wake of high-speed blowouts at Spa.


OK...so this is the first time they have ever tested or enforced tire pressure rules, so it was something based on tire manufacturer's guidelines (vice the FIA rulebook) and was the first time they ever tested them. So, of course, it got a little cocked up.

I think the stewards were correct it not applying any further penalties to Mercedes over the technicality of how and when to measure tire pressures. They need to have a clear set of standards that all the teams are familiar with before they go penalizing them.

"I remember from my F1 career how radical decisions were sometimes made with the tyre pressures," the Finn revealed.

"The team wanted to improve performance, so we took risks even if the tyre company had a strong view about it. Safety should always be above everything else," Hakkinen added.


On the other hand, according to Hakkinen, dangerously dicking around with tire pressures has been done before.

Nothing here is all that surprising.


Those words I highlighted in red say it all to me, some of the drivers and teams complained about the tyre failures and how dangerous they were. Pirelli put in strict operating conditions and for once they were checked. The fact Mercedes (in this case I'm sure other teams have done the same thing) chose to ignore that and potentially put their drivers of risk says it all to me. The stewards should have taken action, they didn't and it's very wrong!! What are they waiting for before they take this seriously, an accident where someone dies? I hope it doesn't get to that, I truly do.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Lyria on Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:23 pm

Sakae wrote:Found this morning: ThisisF1
The great Austrian blames the rules, not Mercedes.

“The error was due to the precise execution and a precise definition of the regulations,” said Berger, who until recently served as a single seater commissioner for F1’s governing FIA.

“But when a tyre should be measured and under what circumstances should not be the main theme of a race weekend,” he insisted.

...as suspected.


In other words 'we're not to blame' even though they were, it's up to them to be within the rules, if they're not, it's their fault!!
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:49 pm

Lyria wrote:
Sakae wrote:Found this morning: ThisisF1
The great Austrian blames the rules, not Mercedes.

“The error was due to the precise execution and a precise definition of the regulations,” said Berger, who until recently served as a single seater commissioner for F1’s governing FIA.

“But when a tyre should be measured and under what circumstances should not be the main theme of a race weekend,” he insisted.

...as suspected.


In other words 'we're not to blame' even though they were, it's up to them to be within the rules, if they're not, it's their fault!!


I have lost track who is blaming whom, especially due to "robust" jammering by some officials before even proper investigation into the matter was launched, but I am leaving this subject with my understanding, that there is (was?) discrepancy between Pirelli (team) and FiA in collection and methodology when, and how data were obtained, which explained different results. All of this due to imprecisely written instructions "how to". I know Paolo disagrees, but, what can I do...
Well, so it seems. BTW, congrat on your new avatar, Lyria.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Lyria on Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:50 am

Sakae wrote:
I have lost track who is blaming whom, especially due to "robust" jammering by some officials before even proper investigation into the matter was launched, but I am leaving this subject with my understanding, that there is (was?) discrepancy between Pirelli (team) and FiA in collection and methodology when, and how data were obtained, which explained different results. All of this due to imprecisely written instructions "how to". I know Paolo disagrees, but, what can I do...
Well, so it seems. BTW, congrat on your new avatar, Lyria.


Actually Sakae, I blame Mercedes for not getting it right. All the other teams managed to have their tyres at the right pressure so it can't have been that hard to do can it? That's how I see it anyway. When it's only one team who gets it wrong like that I tend to think they're trying to get away with something. They did get away with it too, but to me they shouldn't have been allowed to.

I'm glad you like the new avatar, I fancied a change and I like it too :thumbs:
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:16 am

Lyria wrote:
Sakae wrote:
I have lost track who is blaming whom, especially due to "robust" jammering by some officials before even proper investigation into the matter was launched, but I am leaving this subject with my understanding, that there is (was?) discrepancy between Pirelli (team) and FiA in collection and methodology when, and how data were obtained, which explained different results. All of this due to imprecisely written instructions "how to". I know Paolo disagrees, but, what can I do...
Well, so it seems. BTW, congrat on your new avatar, Lyria.


Actually Sakae, I blame Mercedes for not getting it right. All the other teams managed to have their tyres at the right pressure so it can't have been that hard to do can it? That's how I see it anyway. When it's only one team who gets it wrong like that I tend to think they're trying to get away with something. They did get away with it too, but to me they shouldn't have been allowed to.

I'm glad you like the new avatar, I fancied a change and I like it too :thumbs:
OK, it's a split. We agree on later, I am not so sure about the other issue. :)
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:17 am

Lyria wrote:Actually Sakae, I blame Mercedes for not getting it right. All the other teams managed to have their tyres at the right pressure so it can't have been that hard to do can it?


I must admit that I totally agree with what you said Lyria, it does seem like a very straightforward matter to me, they either were or were not within the set tyre pressure limits, as they say "tertium not datur"
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Mach on Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:44 pm

Lyria wrote:
Mach wrote:F@!# KIMI :angryfire:


I get the feeling you're not happy Mach, I'm not sure though :reallyevil:


:rant: :rant: :argh: :argh: :rant: :rant: :angryfire: :banghead:
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:29 am

As a matter of passing interest, a nostalgic fan bothered with statistics and observed, that 2015 the race winner at Monza in comparison to a winner just about ten years ago, has won last race with a total time that was almost four minutes slower, despite extra pit stop winner did ten years ago.
Mr. Hamilton, who likes so much to think about himself as a second Senna (so we heard), would have ended up over two laps behind with his 2015 car when a flag dropped, despite all that preferential treatment he is receiving today (with a car, by a team). This comparison of course perhaps does not reflects as much on Mr. Hamilton personally, but rather on state of the F1, and where we are with competetive racing today.
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