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2015 Italian GP

Talk about the Teams & Drivers

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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby IanK on Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:54 am

Lyria wrote:shows how partisan and biased they can be in Monza doesn't it?


Is that necessarily a bad thing? It's just loyalty to a team rather than a driver. For the most part I'm the same way. There are drivers I'll have a general soft spot for regardless of team but at the end of the day I'd be happier to see a driver I'm neutral toward winning in a Ferrari than a driver I like winning in a Lotus, Mercedes, or especially a McLaren.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:42 am

re: "booing" Hamilton
I think boogin we heard had nothing or at least very little to do with loyalty to Ferrari, and neither it is personal against Hamilton. My take on booing is, that Hamilton has done nothing wrong, but he took one for his team in Italy. His only "crime" was that fact, that he won in a car belonging to (now hated) Mercedes, and manner they are collecting top spots.
I bet had Williams or any other team won, there would not have been booing at all. Most fans (I know) are fed-up with paddock politics, and Mercedes team appears to be a head representative of all evil in that mess with its stubbornness regarding roadblocks on PU related development. I am of course guessing, but my believe is that is all what's to it.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Lyria on Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:13 pm

IanK wrote:
Lyria wrote:shows how partisan and biased they can be in Monza doesn't it?


Is that necessarily a bad thing? It's just loyalty to a team rather than a driver. For the most part I'm the same way. There are drivers I'll have a general soft spot for regardless of team but at the end of the day I'd be happier to see a driver I'm neutral toward winning in a Ferrari than a driver I like winning in a Lotus, Mercedes, or especially a McLaren.


I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just pointing out that it happens there more than at other tracks. I am a person who follows a driver more than a team and no matter who they drive for I want them to win. I have never liked Ferrari for a number of reasons, I wasn't thrilled when Vettel went there, but I am a Vettel fan, so if drives for that team I have to want them to win, I can't help myself. Just as I supported Villeneuve and whatever team he was driving for at the time.
I only mentioned it because when Vettel drove and indeed won with Red Bull there, the crowd seemed to hate him, now he drives for Ferrari they love him, that to me seems fickle in a way but by the same token when he drove for Red Bull I wanted them to win, and now he doesn't drive there, I want them to lose. It's how we all are in our own way I suppose.

Sakae wrote:re: "booing" Hamilton
I think boogin we heard had nothing or at least very little to do with loyalty to Ferrari, and neither it is personal against Hamilton. My take on booing is, that Hamilton has done nothing wrong, but he took one for his team in Italy. His only "crime" was that fact, that he won in a car belonging to (now hated) Mercedes, and manner they are collecting top spots.
I bet had Williams or any other team won, there would not have been booing at all. Most fans (I know) are fed-up with paddock politics, and Mercedes team appears to be a head representative of all evil in that mess with its stubbornness regarding roadblocks on PU related development. I am of course guessing, but my believe is that is all what's to it.


Actually Sakae if it was anywhere other than Monza I might agree with you, maybe to a degree you're right. I do believe though that some of it is down to someone other than Ferrari winning on the tifosi's home track. When Red Bull kept winning people didn't like them, now it's Mercedes' turn, I even remember Schumacher being booed at when he and Ferrari were winning everything in sight!!
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:54 pm

Well, you are of course correct Lyria looking back in history. It is my believe until today, that parting ways for Schumacher with Ferrari was basically due to him winning everything in sight, and from external perspective negatives began to outweighed positives. Maybe that's how LdM perceived it. Michael was also tired, but that's another story. Mercedes is probably in that predicament now. Look back to RBR, their victories were mounted in full competition, and not always it was smooth sailing as Mercedes has it today, yet booing started on one place, only after certain incident, and was then cat-copied elsewhere (Webber v.Vettel).
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:25 pm

not a great race, if Bernie thinks that countries should pay huge fees to host a race he should give them something that they can sell and so something vaguely interesting, not a pointless procession.

Anyway, as usual...

The Stewards - they deserve my top spot, because I think that I've never seen anything so stupid in my whole life... if the Mercs weren't complying with the rules, and if the stewards knew that before the start of the race, they should have prevented from taking part in the race. The fact that both cars were below the mandatory tyre pressure floor speak volumes, and even worse is what good old Toto said about it :roll: :roll: :roll: of course when a tyre loses temperature it also loses pressure, it's a law of physics, even I know it, and that why to my knowledge the pressure should be measured under all circumstances, with tyres both cold as well as hot, and if in any of these measuerement it fails the test it means it's not comply with the regs :roll: :roll: :roll: and it's not true that less of 1 psi doesn't make any difference, the difference is absolutely huge, especially in a place like Monza: more pressure = less grip, less grip = braking is more difficult = cars can overcook their brakes. What is the Mercs only weak spot? come on, you guys have already guessed :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Hamilton - he was simply cruising, good for him that he didn't lose concentration and make a mistake, his car was on a different planet from all the rest

Vettel - as usual a solid drive for him, had he been on the front row instead of the "Icecreaman" he would have likely gained the top spot at the start (but given the advantage that Hamilton's Mercedes had, he wouldn't have been able to keep the lead until Parabolica on the first lap)

Massa - as usual a reasonable race for him, in the Italian press they say that he had some misfiring towards the end of the race, I couldn't find any trace of that on gp.com

Bottas - as usual beaten fair and square by Massa, both in qualy as well as in the race, notwithstanding a better strategy :roll: and he wonders why he hasn't been signed by Ferrari :noway:

Raikkonen - :roll: :roll: :roll: :\ :\ :\ I'd better shut up, sooner or later Arrivabene will have to explain to the world why the gave him a contract extension, all he deserves is a new route on for his ice cream business

Perez - very undervalued, he's not German and Ferrari should have considered him as a suitable team mate to Vettel

Hulkenberg - same as above, pity he's German and Arrivabene doesn't want 2 German drivers for commercial reasons, he's very unlucky

Ricciardo - great come back for him, watching him is always entertaining
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:37 pm

Mercedes was cruising. We can say that based on radio instruction issued to Hamilton by the pit wall, that he has to increase gap from Vettel as a precautionary measure should he got a timing penalty. He subsequently simply stepped on it, and increased the gap to 25 sec, whereas Vettel could not respond.

With respect to Kimi, there was a lot of Ferrari/Fiat brass in the paddock. MA must have swallowed his tongue when lights went off, and Kimi went from P2 to P20 more rapidly than SM managed to clean his glasses. :rotflmao:
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Lyria on Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:04 am

Paolo 2 wrote:not a great race, if Bernie thinks that countries should pay huge fees to host a race he should give them something that they can sell and so something vaguely interesting, not a pointless procession.

Anyway, as usual...

The Stewards - they deserve my top spot, because I think that I've never seen anything so stupid in my whole life... if the Mercs weren't complying with the rules, and if the stewards knew that before the start of the race, they should have prevented from taking part in the race. The fact that both cars were below the mandatory tyre pressure floor speak volumes, and even worse is what good old Toto said about it :roll: :roll: :roll: of course when a tyre loses temperature it also loses pressure, it's a law of physics, even I know it, and that why to my knowledge the pressure should be measured under all circumstances, with tyres both cold as well as hot, and if in any of these measuerement it fails the test it means it's not comply with the regs :roll: :roll: :roll: and it's not true that less of 1 psi doesn't make any difference, the difference is absolutely huge, especially in a place like Monza: more pressure = less grip, less grip = braking is more difficult = cars can overcook their brakes. What is the Mercs only weak spot? come on, you guys have already guessed :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:



What makes it even worse is knowing the same thing happened in the GP2 and the car got thrown out of qualifying for it!! Consistency people, that's all we're asking for!
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:51 am

There were two issues associated with the tiregate incident.
1. Inconsitency in judgment on similar issue between two series.
2. Disconnect in procedures and engineering between FiA and Pirelli.

- Pirelli measured pressure in tires when tires were hot taken off blankets - data were OK
- FiA inspected pressure later, when tires were on their cooling cycle, which produced a different (lower, and out of spec) measurement.

In my judgement this might be another case of FiA own making, not having issued correlated (clearly written) procedure what, when, and how pressure will be inspected. Engineers are not stupid, and they would work with it. There was clearly disconnect between Pirelli and technical delegate. On the other hand, if Pirelli knew when Bauer will do his sampling, than they are the people to talk to.

I don't think there was an intent to cheat, but misuderstanding, and short sighted thinking by a number of people. Mercedes, as others, were relaying on Pirelli's engineers to be in spec, who relay collected data to FiA as soon as they finished their inspection of the team they work with, and they all thought that's end of it. I must admit this is not a precise science, and cooling rate of tires as soon as blankets are taken off varies under different ambient conditions. I am not sure what Bauer expected, but Mercedes is not entirely to blame (methinks) for the mess.

A. Cooper has an informative article on the subject in Motosport.com
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:57 am

Sakae wrote:
In my judgement this might be another case of FiA own making, not having issued correlated (clearly written) procedure what, when, and how pressure will be inspected.


to my knowledge they can check the tyre pressure at any time and the pressure has always to be without certain given criteria, meaning that if the minimum is the problem they check it when the tyres are cold and if the problem is the maximum pressure they check it when the tyres is hot, unless something has changed in the last few years that I'm not aware of
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:13 am

Paolo 2 wrote:
Sakae wrote:
In my judgement this might be another case of FiA own making, not having issued correlated (clearly written) procedure what, when, and how pressure will be inspected.


to my knowledge they can check the tyre pressure at any time and the pressure has always to be without certain given criteria, meaning that if the minimum is the problem they check it when the tyres are cold and if the problem is the maximum pressure they check it when the tyres is hot, unless something has changed in the last few years that I'm not aware of
Pirelli engineer has some explaining to do, because he is the one who should have proprietary temperatures v. pressure charts on his hand, and based on ambient temperatures make a set point at correct level. This type of "know how" comes only from laboratory testing during product development, and I doubt the team has access to such data. Problem is one of physics; tire pressure is never static, and for FiA to state it always has to be within limits, I wonder if that's actually realistic definition of the physical conditions in the field. When someone say we will measure tire when it is cold, next questions is, how cold that is, and what are the conditions under which the measurement will be taken (the same instruments, the same method as Pireli has, or different one?), because due to manufacturing variances, in reality, every tire is unique, responding differently to temperature changes. Differences among them could be very small, but nonetheless it's never the same. Margin of error exists everywhere, including method of mesurement. If Mercedes wanted a tire at minimum pressure when Bauer came in, only PIrelli would have known how much higher up a set point has to be, so as tires do cool off, they are still in limits (from timing point of view that lowest permissiable pressure point is when formation laps beggins, and then pressure beggins to rise again as tire heats up).
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:51 pm

Sakae wrote:[ When someone say we will measure tire when it is cold, next questions is, how cold that is, and what are the conditions under which the measurement will be taken (the same instruments, the same method as Pireli has, or different one?)


cold = ambient temperature, it's much more straightforward that you think, the tyre pressure must ALWAYS be between a set range, everyone manages to do this, in every racing category
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:49 pm

Paolo 2 wrote:
Sakae wrote:[ When someone say we will measure tire when it is cold, next questions is, how cold that is, and what are the conditions under which the measurement will be taken (the same instruments, the same method as Pireli has, or different one?)


cold = ambient temperature, it's much more straightforward that you think, the tyre pressure must ALWAYS be between a set range, everyone manages to do this, in every racing category


I do not wish to be a pain in wrong places, especially with you, Paolo, but herein is a copy of Doc. 53 issued by FiA.
Having heard from the Technical Delegate, the Team Representatives and the Pirelli Team Tyre engineer, the Stewards have determined that the pressure in the tyres concerned were at the minimum start pressure recommended by Pirelli when they were fitted to the car. In making this determination regarding the pressures, the Stewards noted that the tyre warming blankets had been disconnected from their power source, as is normal procedure, and the tyres were significantly below the maximum permitted tyre blanket temperature at the time of the FIA’s measurement on the grid, and at significantly different temperatures from other cars measured on the grid. Further, the Stewards are satisfied that the team followed the currently specified procedure, supervised by the Tyre Manufacturer, for the safe operation of the tyres.
Therefore the Stewards decide to take no further action.
Nevertheless, the Stewards recommend that the Tyre Manufacturer and the FIA hold further meetings to provide clear guidance to the teams on measurement protocols.


Recommendation suggests, that it is not a straightforward matter as many think (and I do agree based on my own background). Add confusion in Mercedes's camp, and obviously what is emerging is an engineering case with some ambiguity involved. Anyway, this is as much I should be commenting on that. Sorry for being so stubborn. BTW, there is a Ph.D. disertation work done at MIT on this very subject (I am still searching for it, should you be interested). :)


NB - "cold" or "hot" - I thought they are reffering actually to a temperature of the tire compound with volume of air under specific pressure.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Lawrence on Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:23 pm

Were there minimum tire pressure rules always in the formula one rules, or was this something they just added (or just enforced) after the disasters at Spa?
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Sakae on Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:38 pm

I haven't read a transcript of technical recommendations born from the meeting between Pirelli, FiA, and the representative teams, thus I cannot comment on changes, but there was always a span from min to max. It should be on FiA records somewhere.
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Re: 2015 Italian GP

Postby Paolo 2 on Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:50 pm

Lawrence wrote:Were there minimum tire pressure rules always in the formula one rules, or was this something they just added (or just enforced) after the disasters at Spa?


to my knowledge there have always been regulations setting out maximum and minimum tyre pressure. What Sakae is referring to explains why they measured a tyre temperature that wasn't in compliance with Pirelli's guidance, as I read it it doesn't address whether they were in compliance with the rules or not (in the sense that I do not know how Pirelli's guidance should be considered from a purely legal perspective, whether it was binding or not).
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