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FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Lawrence on Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:33 pm

At 254 G's, would the accident have been survivable if the tractor was not there?
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Sakae on Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:40 pm

Without the vehicle there, impact would yield different data had one car struck another, and more importantly, backlash in all likelyhood would had not been absorbed by driver's head. Whilst this is just guessing, but chances for suvival were there based on rationale, that it was the couterweight-frame of which actually fatal blow was delivered. I am still lacking understanding on what grounds vehicle was approved to move in, whilst race control is silent on that point.
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Lawrence on Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:57 pm

And the races for the last couple of years elsewhere, do they move the cranes the moment the accident happens, or do they wait until everyone has bunched up behind the pace car?
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby IanK on Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:59 pm

I'm guessing it wouldn't have been anywhere near 254g if the tractor wasn't there. From my understanding a significant amount of the force generated was from his car being pushed down as it went under the tractor.
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Sakae on Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:07 pm

Lawrence wrote:And the races for the last couple of years elsewhere, do they move the cranes the moment the accident happens, or do they wait until everyone has bunched up behind the pace car?

Fact is, I do not know enough to tell cohesively and accurately whole story, nor I would know for fact, who is in charge of side-track operations. It was painfully obvious, and written some time ago about it on this forum, that some marginal slow down would not have most likely prevented outcome of that race. I am however not privy to all data, hence cannot identify primary causes of the incident, but I seriously doubt it was car speed alone which triggered off-track excursion.

I suspect the Race Control (Whiting), has direct or implied responsibility for those activities, but logic would dictate, that any recovery vehicle and foot personnel should not be allowed to cross safety barriers until all cars are under speed suspension (be it by SC, VSC, or red flag) and person in charge launches commencement of recovery efforts without ambiguity. I have been always cognizant of the fact that if one car can falter, so may the cars that follow, which all was so unfortunately demonstrated in 2014 in Japan. Problem is, if I could figured this out, why not FiA? To take this discussion further, I would suggest, that any car following SC under reduced speed, and left the track in the same trajectory as JB has, result would have been the same, which left FiA with only one correct decision under those circumstances - race should have been either red flaged, or speed of cars on the track would be enforced at pits-level. (90 km/hr or so).
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Lawrence on Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:40 pm

Sakae wrote:Fact is, I do not know enough to tell cohesively and accurately whole story, [bigimg]nor I would know for fact, who is in charge of side-track operations.


I don't know either, but I suspect what the Japanese marshals were doing was not out of the ordinary. I gather to become a marshal, you have to take courses, handle a number of lower level races first, and generally have to go through a pretty rigorous qualifying procedure (at that is how it is in the U.S. with the SCCA). I gather some of the marshals have a lot more formal training and experience than some of the drivers.
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Lawrence on Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:08 am

Was watching the GP2 race today at the Hungaring. A car went off and they threw a full-course yellow. Clearly before the cars had lined up behind the safety car and slowed, a tractor was already moving out from behind the barriers and onto the track to remove the car. My observations:

1) This is not an unusual procedure.
2) It was occurring a year after the Bianchi accident
3) ....at a site, and probably using the same course marshals that do F1.

My conclusions:
1) It does not appear that FIA has actually taken any action to outlaw tractors/cranes/course workers/etc. from the track until after the cars have lined up behind the safety car....and....
2) This not being an unusual procedure, the Japanese marshals were doing what marshal everywhere have been doing. They can't be blamed if it is a standard procedure.
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Sakae on Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:19 am

I apologize for misunderstanding, but I have never meant to imply, that deployment of recovery vehicles was (or is) an unusual procedure. I do however think, that procedure is not well thought out, and therefore wrong, and it should be rather a subject of investigation of an external authority why, past Japan 2014, such practice continues, and clamp down upon it, unless of course we think that FiA and FOM are above the law.

Problem might be to find answer to a question, which law? Boxing, american style football shortens lives of its participants, yet the same law-makers who should do something about it, rather are willing participants, and the same goes for the F1. Sounds hopeless, yet I think something could be found in the mandate and constitution of the FiA, which is being violated, and could be put for shame as scandalous practices of that organization to public.
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Lawrence on Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:59 am

The problem is that there a trade-off between quickly removing the car (for two reasons 1) safety, and 2) the race/show) vice losing a full lap or two before you can start removing the car. But obviously, they have not set up GP2 for the virtual safety car. Remember, when the full course yellows started becoming common, there was resistance to it (too NASCAR like !!!). Now we are asking that all full course yellows be extended another lap or two. I not sure that is the correct trade off.
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Lawrence on Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:00 am

Sakae wrote:Boxing, american style football shortens lives of its participants, yet the same law-makers who should do something about it, rather are willing participants, and the same goes for the F1.


So should boxing and American football be outlawed?
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Sakae on Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:12 am

Lawrence wrote:
Sakae wrote:Boxing, american style football shortens lives of its participants, yet the same law-makers who should do something about it, rather are willing participants, and the same goes for the F1.


So should boxing and American football be outlawed?
I have no opinion about that, and as long as medical institutions makes participants aware of consequences of such behavior. I think similarly as with smoking, its personal choice if people do not fear cancer, brain damage, or whatever else pops in. It says a lot about a man when he sells his life with grandchildren for upfront money, ready to live - by his own decision, and defying facts - just 54 years of age. (75y is average life span for US men, ranking No.38). My brother in law smokes 30 cigarettes a day, and I learned to tolerate this, even as I feel for my sister. (BTW I do not smoke, but I am heavy coffee drinker, thus not in a position to give any moralistic lectures to anyone). Our society, I doubt, will ever exists without some degree of violence. It's just threshold of our tolerance for it is changing.
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Sakae on Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:14 am

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/535145/Hartstein_I_believe_they_are_liable_for_Bianchis_death/

Similar (safety related) concern has bothered me too since last year, commission's conlusion notwithstanding.
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Lawrence on Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:31 pm

Sakae wrote:(BTW I do not smoke, but I am heavy coffee drinker, thus not in a position to give any moralistic lectures to anyone).


Actually, I don't think I have seen anything that proves that coffee is really unhealthy for you.
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Sakae on Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:56 am

PhilIppe Bianchi has posted this today:
Que chacun sache que si depuis un certain temps la Famille Bianchi est resté bien calme il n’en est rien notre petit jules nous donne chaque jour sa force et de belles actions vont etre menées jamais on ne l’oubliera et vous ces fans ces amis vous vous ferez toujours partis de son histoire rendez vous en Janvier pour la riposte

Cryptic comment, and one can wonder if "action" includes FiA. My opinion regarding JB's accident hasn't changed since that day, FiA's report notwithstanding. It is my view that Race Control could, and should have done more to prevent such incidents as one in Japan 2014. Drivers today are undoubtedly safer than in the past because of sport's efforts, I applaud that, but the thing is, regarding safety, it's never enough, as it were with this case, IMO. Acting proactively, instead reactively is the underlying principle that was missing. What could have been done, and was not has been discussed in the past and there is no need to repeat it.
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Re: FIA Accident Report - Japanese Grand Prix

Postby Sakae on Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:32 am

This is not going away, "I am loud and clear". People who should have been investigated have done investigation.
http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/550202/Those_responsible_for_c_death_must_pay__father/
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