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Sebastian Vettel

Talk about the Teams & Drivers

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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Paolo 2 on Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:03 am

Lawrence wrote:
Sakae wrote:Some people want to have it both ways.

1. DR is magnificent and destroyed Vettel by sheer skills. (Doubtful, I say, but it comforts certain mindsets).
2. Now it is claimed, Vettel cheated to get out of his contract. (Doubtful, I say, but I like humor).

I am however also confused. So, what is it? It cannot be both ways. I certainly have no access to Vettel's contract, and those who know, I doubt they would risk it, and in ref. to exit clause, talk about it, and reveal content of confidential documents in public.


Well, I don't think DR is magnificent (otherwise, so to would be Kvyat). Clearly Vettel was in a slump last year caused by either: 1) could not come to grips with the car, 2) was demotivated or 3) wanted to get out of his contract.

Still suspect it was primarily #2...but can't rule out #3 (which may related to #2).


I think that we also have to consider Vettel's bad luck last year and some team decisions that didn't help him, in Canada, for example, IMHO he would have ended up ahead of Ricciardo if it wasn't for the pit wall, and after that race it all went downhill, so maybe we should consider another option ie. Red Bull had had enough of him because he was too expensive and was fast putting the team's effort in the shadow. All in all I think that it was a combination of all those factors (but I struggle to see Vettel going slow on purpose just to get out of his contract)
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Sakae on Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:13 am

I've voiced this opinion last year, and retained almost all of it until today, namely, Vettel didn't forget how to drive, but resultant of last year was due to several vectors in a play. Some of them observable as factual, others are obvious conjecture. In contrast to DR, prior racing season, he got to hardly test a car full of new characteristics due to one reliability problem after another, and his racing weekends weren't much better. How many times instead FP he was chewing on his fingernails, instead driving? He never could get break for those from media. After 2013 his name suddenly was in the mud and his mind has done probably more racing than his car did.
Then, he had a first baby that he hardly saw, whilst his partner at the distance was alone to handle motherhood, all of that on the phone only. While this was going on, his mentor and friend of many years with whom he could talk openly, was in coma with uncertain end; add the shipwreck he was supposed to drive, and had difficulty with, so, why anyone was surprised that optics weren't best after 2013. There were indicators, that later in that year he was reformatting his driving style quickly and adopting to what he had, but it was too late to salvage the season, and it was clear by then, DR was receiving preferential treatment, which was understandable, for, to use cliche, that's how cookies crumble. At the end, and I can only speculate about it, but I think RBR wanted him out; after all DM never came out before camera with him as he was seen with Webber. All in all, it was not best of times for him.

Media were priming fans, and there was too much negativity around, thus when opportunity to leave arose, he took it, and rest is history. I don't think he is regretful of it. He had some good years with RBR, despite them permitting certain issues (Webber's indiscretions and skeletons of earlier time, paddock rumors, and media politics) to get out of hand, which hurt him. He looks happier, and relaxed now, and to his credit, he has maintained positive attitude towards RBR. Certainly more so, than what Webber has, as many excerpts from his book suggest.

________

BTW, it has been said on more than one occasion, that DM does not likes anything of German origins; he has tolerated Vettel, because there was upside to this initially. Whether it is true or false, I am not sure, but Lauda said the same the other day, which is why RBR is not going to have Mercedes mounted on, or so it looks like. I've committed earlier one error of judgement, namely, I tought that Dr. Marko was his mentor, but it came up in later interviews, that his friend since childhood, MS was actually a man he leaned on when things got though. It was obvious, that situation and adversity of 2014 he was handling alone, and IMHO, he has not done it so badly, as some making so.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Lawrence on Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:53 am

Paolo 2 wrote:I think that we also have to consider Vettel's bad luck last year and some team decisions that didn't help him, in Canada, for example, IMHO he would have ended up ahead of Ricciardo if it wasn't for the pit wall, and after that race it all went downhill, so maybe we should consider another option ie. Red Bull had had enough of him because he was too expensive and was fast putting the team's effort in the shadow. All in all I think that it was a combination of all those factors (but I struggle to see Vettel going slow on purpose just to get out of his contract)


He did have a very bad start to the season, but a season is a very long time time, and I don''t recall the second half of the season looking any better than the first half. In contrast, the Ferrari was difficult to drive, which was the reason for Raikonnen's poor performance last year, yet Alonso did well last year and suddenly this year, Vettel is also doing well with it, but Raikonnen still is not. And.... certainly this year's McLaren is having as bad if not worse of a start then Red Bull had last year, and yet Alonso and Button appear to both be getting on with the program.

So yea, 2014 is a hard year to explain for Vettel, because his performance was so poor compared to 2013 and 2015.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Paolo 2 on Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:16 pm

Lawrence wrote:
Paolo 2 wrote:I think that we also have to consider Vettel's bad luck last year and some team decisions that didn't help him, in Canada, for example, IMHO he would have ended up ahead of Ricciardo if it wasn't for the pit wall, and after that race it all went downhill, so maybe we should consider another option ie. Red Bull had had enough of him because he was too expensive and was fast putting the team's effort in the shadow. All in all I think that it was a combination of all those factors (but I struggle to see Vettel going slow on purpose just to get out of his contract)


He did have a very bad start to the season, but a season is a very long time time, and I don''t recall the second half of the season looking any better than the first half. In contrast, the Ferrari was difficult to drive, which was the reason for Raikonnen's poor performance last year, yet Alonso did well last year and suddenly this year, Vettel is also doing well with it, but Raikonnen still is not. And.... certainly this year's McLaren is having as bad if not worse of a start then Red Bull had last year, and yet Alonso and Button appear to both be getting on with the program.

So yea, 2014 is a hard year to explain for Vettel, because his performance was so poor compared to 2013 and 2015.



IMHO after Canada last year Vettel gave up, I think that the difference between the first and the second half of the season for Vettel last year was that during the first half he was supremely unlucky whereas during the second part he had given up. Also I think that both Alonso and Vettel belong to a totally different league compared to Raikkonen
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Sakae on Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:33 pm

Paolo 2 wrote:
Lawrence wrote:
Paolo 2 wrote:I think that we also have to consider Vettel's bad luck last year and some team decisions that didn't help him, in Canada, for example, IMHO he would have ended up ahead of Ricciardo if it wasn't for the pit wall, and after that race it all went downhill, so maybe we should consider another option ie. Red Bull had had enough of him because he was too expensive and was fast putting the team's effort in the shadow. All in all I think that it was a combination of all those factors (but I struggle to see Vettel going slow on purpose just to get out of his contract)


He did have a very bad start to the season, but a season is a very long time time, and I don''t recall the second half of the season looking any better than the first half. In contrast, the Ferrari was difficult to drive, which was the reason for Raikonnen's poor performance last year, yet Alonso did well last year and suddenly this year, Vettel is also doing well with it, but Raikonnen still is not. And.... certainly this year's McLaren is having as bad if not worse of a start then Red Bull had last year, and yet Alonso and Button appear to both be getting on with the program.

So yea, 2014 is a hard year to explain for Vettel, because his performance was so poor compared to 2013 and 2015.



IMHO after Canada last year Vettel gave up, I think that the difference between the first and the second half of the season for Vettel last year was that during the first half he was supremely unlucky whereas during the second part he had given up. Also I think that both Alonso and Vettel belong to a totally different league compared to Raikkonen


I would agree with opinion pertaining to first half of 2014 season, however I think later part might not be accurate. Vettel never struck me as someone who ever gives up, that's first, and I am not alone who has noticed, that he was held back by RB in favor of DR. That's a fact, not conjecture. In couple of instances there were team orders issued not to challenge DR, who was touted as hero around the world for beating Vettel on a score board, despite that Sebastian has been told also in two consecutive races to hold position. Vettel obeyed, yet of course he was of not happy already in China, but no one really cared what Vettel thinks or feels, as long as he was down, and kicks into body on the ground were tolerated.

In the frame of paddock politics it was enjoyable for some, whilst morally it was reprehensible to those of us who paid attention, and knew about it. DR was aware of it as well, which is why he never complained in public about Seb.
Australian however finished me off when he came out in public, and with a straight face demanded from RBR to protect him from Vettel, Russian race onwards. Nice backstabbing by our boy, so I thought.

Today it's all history, but when someone like Lawrence questions Vettel's character, I think maybe better approach is not to go there, because once dirty laundry is pulled out, there will be plenty finger-pointing around, most of them get dirty, including those two saints, Alonso and Hamilton. No one will derive any pleasure from it, that's safe to say.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Lawrence on Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:28 pm

Paolo 2 wrote:IMHO after Canada last year Vettel gave up, I think that the difference between the first and the second half of the season for Vettel last year was that during the first half he was supremely unlucky whereas during the second part he had given up. Also I think that both Alonso and Vettel belong to a totally different league compared to Raikkonen


Agree on both counts.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Lawrence on Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:12 pm

Sakae wrote:...that's first, and I am not alone who has noticed, that he was held back by RB in favor of DR. That's a fact, not conjecture.


I guess you are going to have to provide a little proof for your "fact".

Just a few numbers:

In the first seven races (through Canada) DR outqualified Vettel 5 to 2. When they both finished races, he finished ahead of him on track 5 to 0 (including the race he was disqualified from). Twice the finished nose to tail, DR ahead of Vettel.

Then next twelve races show DR and Vettel splitting even on qualifying (6 to 6) while DR finished ahead of him on track 7 to 3. Three times they finished nose to tail, Vettel ahead of DR once and DR ahead of Vettel twice. The two races DR won, Vettel finished 5th and 7th....so not sure he was held back when Red Bull had a winning car.

In the end, a look at the 2014 I think pretty much looks like only two conclusions:

1. Ricciardo is faster than Vettel and has better race craft (beat him in qualifying 11-8 and on track 12-3 and when they ran 1-2 was ahead 4-1)....or....
2. Vettel was demotivated/demoralized/gave-up/wasn't trying his hardest.

I don't know how you explain the totality of the season based upon luck, adjusting to the car, mechanical problems, and Red Bull favoritism of its junior driver, but that does appear to be your long list of explanations. Why not accept that Vettel simply grossly underperformed in 2014 instead of trying to desperately rationalize excuses for him? He is not perfect and god-like.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Sakae on Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:34 pm

I do not know whether Vettel was, or wasn't demotivated last year. He could had been, but that's not my assertion because I see no bases for it. A lot of stuff went wrong in his professional racing work, and much more off the track, so much we know. I say however also so much, if you cannot understand Vettel in 2014, that's because you are in all likelyhood misinterpreting his situation, and erroneous inputs (irrelevant statistical data, false assumptions) leads you to nowhere in terms of conclusions.

I am fundamentally lazy, not to say strapped for time to build (again) a cohesive defense case on behalf of Vettel; just quick one short search produced following:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/may/06/red-bull-daniel-ricciardo-team-orders-sebastian-vettel

Red Bull's Daniel Ricciardo gives the thumbs-up to team orders
• Sebastian Vettel pulled over for the Australian in China
• 'It's our responsibility to obey it,' says Ricciardo


I think that I am done with this subject. It's really not worth much more. It was admittedly not a good year, and if Webber cannot figured out what went wrong, and he thinks he knows Seb well, we then might just as well to file it as "unresolved, cold case".
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Lawrence on Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:35 am

Yea, I remember the "tough luck" comment by Vettel. That was only the fourth race of the season. I don't think it adds up to the conclusions you have claimed (which I gather is that Red Bull by the fourth race of the season was favoring DR). In fact, the comment struck me as a little snarky.
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Sakae on Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:21 am

motorsport.com surprised me with following article, since I gave up on, that they, like autosport.com, would be capable to print anything of this kind - praising Vettel as a German-man, and as a driver. Maybe I like it only because our views are aligned along the same thrust, that Vettel has been mis-represented on many fronts for years through shallow analyses of his career, or, occasionally even tarred by vitriolic interests.

Well done.

Sebastian Vettel hasn’t changed a bit – but perceptions of him have


http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/sebastian-vettel-hasnt-changed-a-bit-but-perceptions-of-him-have
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Lyria on Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:49 pm

Sakae wrote:motorsport.com surprised me with following article, since I gave up on, that they, like autosport.com, would be capable to print anything of this kind - praising Vettel as a German-man, and as a driver. Maybe I like it only because our views are aligned along the same thrust, that Vettel has been mis-represented on many fronts for years through shallow analyses of his career, or, occasionally even tarred by vitriolic interests.

Well done.

Sebastian Vettel hasn’t changed a bit – but perceptions of him have


http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/sebastian-vettel-hasnt-changed-a-bit-but-perceptions-of-him-have


Good find Sakae :thumbs: I actually use that site a lot and I follow one of their reporters on twitter who seems to be a really nice guy too. It's a good site I have to admit.

Oh and I would agree with the article, he's not perfect, no one ever is, but he's still the same Vettel we know and love :yay:
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Lyria on Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:33 pm

I follow Ferrari on twitter and they just put up a you tube video of refuelling with Seb. Basically people went into a petrol/gas station and they were sent off to pay or whatever whilst someone filled their car with fuel. Whilst they couldn't see what was going on they swapped their car the Ferrari F1 car and when they came out Seb was pumping fuel into it. Talk about some wide eyed people when they saw him!! I found it amusing anyway and Seb looked to be having fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbYij3kg-fE
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Lyria on Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:17 pm

Sebastian Vettel has won the Race Of Champions. :yay: :dance: :dance2: :clap: :sun: :yay:

See some people have told me Vettel isn't that good, he only wins because he's in the best car. Well not this he didn't. The cars they took part in were identical and Vettel only lost one heat all day. To win that well is a triumph and I for one am very pleased for him :yay: :yay:

Full story: http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24182/ ... -champions?
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Lawrence on Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:11 am

Lyria wrote:See some people have told me Vettel isn't that good...


Actually, I don't think anyone on this board has said that,
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Re: Sebastian Vettel

Postby Sakae on Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:27 am

Huh..?
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